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Post by Rose on Oct 19, 2007 12:28:02 GMT -5
Ok, so I understand why they showed Rose in origins, because it was part of Logan's (James') past, but what about in Wolverine 32, 75, & 176. What was the point of seeing her in the near death experiences if he didn't know WHO she was? Was it to hint at his past or something?
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Post by CongoJack on Oct 19, 2007 16:18:20 GMT -5
In issues 32 and 75 (written by Wolverine god Larry Hama and published long before Origin was released), it wasn't Rose that Logan saw, but Jean Grey. In Frank Tieri's death issue, he retconned the woman Logan meets into being Rose.
With Hama's issues, I imagine he was confirming the strong place that Jean holds in Wolverine's heart. Tieri showed Logan meeting Rose as a hint to his past and a remnant of Logan's repressed memories.
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Post by Megalictis on Oct 20, 2007 13:58:48 GMT -5
Wolverine #75 and #176 are both written in such a way as to leave Logan's "angel" unspecified. Logan himself ientified the woman as "Jean." Tieri's red-head (coming on the heels of Origin and clearly implied to be Rose who is dead and waiting to be reunited with him) makes one thing clear - "I'm not Jean." But with that declaration limiting the possibilities by one Tieri doesn't explicitly say "I'm Rose," and that leaves open the third possibility.
The Phoenix: living personification of death and rebirth.
The fourth possibility being that it's all just Logan's mind making this stuff up and, as in dreams, no consistency need apply from one near-death experience to the next.
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Post by Rose on Oct 21, 2007 19:03:11 GMT -5
In issues 32 and 75 (written by Wolverine god Larry Hama and published long before Origin was released), it wasn't Rose that Logan saw, but Jean Grey. In Frank Tieri's death issue, he retconned the woman Logan meets into being Rose. With Hama's issues, I imagine he was confirming the strong place that Jean holds in Wolverine's heart. Tieri showed Logan meeting Rose as a hint to his past and a remnant of Logan's repressed memories. But in #75, didn't he return to SAVE Jean? So why would she be there (looking like an angel) if she was in trouble... |
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Post by Rose on Oct 21, 2007 19:06:11 GMT -5
Wolverine #75 and #176 are both written in such a way as to leave Logan's "angel" unspecified. Logan himself ientified the woman as "Jean." Tieri's red-head (coming on the heels of Origin and clearly implied to be Rose who is dead and waiting to be reunited with him) makes one thing clear - "I'm not Jean." But with that declaration limiting the possibilities by one Tieri doesn't explicitly say "I'm Rose," and that leaves open the third possibility. The Phoenix: living personification of death and rebirth. The fourth possibility being that it's all just Logan's mind making this stuff up and, as in dreams, no consistency need apply from one near-death experience to the next. Though it didn't specifically say she was Rose, it hints at it pretty good. She's holding a Rose, and why would anyone else call him James? Then again, his mind might have just been making it up, seeing lost loves ,fighting dead enemies...hmm, it definitely could just be repressed memories trying to fight their way out...who knows. |
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Post by Megalictis on Oct 22, 2007 9:06:18 GMT -5
I think in Wolverine #75 it was intended to be Logan's mind that conjurred an image of Jean on the brink of death, not literally Jean speaking to him in a literal afterlife.
Yes, Tieri clearly meant it to be Rose, but in not making it explicit he left the encounter, and her identity, open to future interpretation.
In any case I much preferred the idea that Rose was waiting for Logan on the other side to Guggenheim's "Lazaer" option.
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Post by Rose on Oct 24, 2007 12:34:26 GMT -5
Hmm, ok I read about some of that, but what really is Lazaer?
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Post by Megalictis on Oct 24, 2007 14:50:32 GMT -5
"Lazaer" is an anagram for "Azrael" (Hebrew for "helper of God") - the Angel of Death (not to be confused with Gargamel's cat from the Smurfs cartoon). When they first met on the battlefields of France in WWI Logan did something that no mortal had ever done - he wrested the sword from Azrael's grasp and struck him down with it. Since then, whenever Logan's body is clinically dead his spirit travels to the threshold of the afterlife where he must repeat his battle with Lazaer/Azrael and defeat him again in order to return to earth. Of course we've seen Logan's expereince of a near-death afterlife before, and only Loeb's recent accounts include any hint of this.
Loeb is so bent on making his mark on Wolverine's story and "explaining" how Logan could regenerate from a single drop of blood in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11 (something that was previously understood to have been the result of his blood hitting the power gem), that he chose to ignore the fact that his story contradicts several pervious (and more appealing) accounts of Logan's near death expereinces. To me, Loeb comes off as being egotistical for this, but I take Wolverine's continuity more seriosly than most casual readers. I only hope that (like the events of UXM Annual #11) this story resolves itself in such a way that it can never be repeated, i.e. by ending the long conflict with "Lazaer" so Logan is once again effectively "mortal." It'd be tough for future writers to create any credible threat for Wolverine if he effectively gets a second chance every time he dies.
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Post by Rose on Oct 24, 2007 16:23:53 GMT -5
Why the heck would they have him fighting the angel of death? I don't like that...but then again they're the writers...not me. But really...the earlier near death experiences were at least a little more...believable?
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Post by Epitaph on Oct 25, 2007 16:29:26 GMT -5
its crazy how you all remember this stuff. lol
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Post by Megalictis on Oct 26, 2007 10:59:10 GMT -5
I find Guggeneheim's take on Logan's near-death experience less satisfying than the previous versions because it doens't say anything about who Logan is as a person.
In Hama's Wolverine #75 we see Logan as close to death as we've ever seen him (the only time he came close to this was his crucifixion in UXM #251). He's just had the adamantium ripped out of him and it's more than his body can take. What's more he wants to die. He's sick and tired of the endless sufferring that gets him nowhere, he's tired of seeing everyone he loves die, and he's ready to say "screw you guys, I'm goin' home!" Ultimately he chooses life because he loves Jean Grey too much to let go.
In Tieri's Wolverine #176 Sabretooth has ripped Logan's heart out and he's dead for 23 minutes while he grows a new one. Following on the heels of Jenkins' Origin it's Rose Logan now meets in the afterlife (though he mistakes her for Jean). It fits the idea that many people who have near-death experiences are met by lost loved ones waiting for them on the other side. Rose essentially deconstructs and psychoanalyzes Logan, revealing the underlying pattern of his choices and his behavior. In this case Logan chooses to fight and live rather than accept his death and regain his lost memories (including his memory of Rose, his first love).
In contrast, Guggenheim's arc has so far only dealt with "explaining" why Logan doesn't die and how his mind can survive the destruction of his brain - something that needed no explanation until recent years, since Logan's healing factor has become exaggerated (in part thanks to Guggenheim's last arc) to the point where he can survive such critical damage. It's about Logan's power, not about Logan the man, and only adds to the over-exaggeration of his healing factor to the point of virtual indestructibility. In my mind this detracts from, rather than improves, Wolverine.
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Post by Rose on Oct 26, 2007 13:04:19 GMT -5
1) honestly, I really jsut don't like the Angel of death thing, no reason really, I just don't.
2) It's understandable as to why Logan wants to die. Even in Origins, he was tempted to give in to death, he said it was calling him. but he wanted to save Daken... Plus He's already lived so long, and from the sounds of it, he's got a lot of little demons torturing him. I mean imagine losing SO MANY loved ones, and it gets you NOWHERE! But really, if he was introduced to religion by Janet (I'm not sure of her last name) then does he really think, with the way he's living now, that he's going to go anywhere good?
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Post by Rose on Nov 4, 2007 19:48:00 GMT -5
sorry for dragging out an old post, but I have one more question. Did Logan ever tell anyone about his near death experiences?
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Post by Megalictis on Nov 5, 2007 10:40:28 GMT -5
He told Amur (his Atlantean "girlfriend") about Lazaer at the end of Guggenheim's Civil War arc, but I don't recall Logan ever discussing his encounters with a "red-haired angel" with anyone.
In the one hand that's just like him - he doesn't usually reveal what's going on in his head except in narration captions. On the other hand that's just one more scene between Logan and Nightcrawler I would have liked to see. I realize this is a tangent, but Kurt is supposed to be Logan's best friend, but they hardly get any meaningful page-time together. Additionally Kurt has always been religious and (believed he) was once studying to be a priest. If there was anyone he would have confided his experiences of an afterlife to, I think it would have been Kurt.
We don't know much about Logan's early experience of religion. His family celebrated Christmas in Origin, but he was never seen going to Church. Apparently Janet had something to do with his "finding religion" around WWI (either before or because of her death). All we know about her is that she was part of the program and her death was intended as part of Logan's "conditioning." It may be that she introduced him to some form of organized religion specifically so he events could prompt Logan to lose faith in God and churches. Romulus wanted Logan to feel isolated and alienated from any kind of human community. In any case, Logan is not particularly religious any more. He once said of some poachers - "if these guys have immortal souls and go to some kind of afterlife, then I'd rather go with the animals."
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Post by Rose on Nov 7, 2007 15:23:02 GMT -5
Well, it's obvious that Romulus succeeded in making Logan feel alone/alienated, and it's obvious that Logan really has nothing to do with any kind of religion, whether he believed or not, unfortunately along with a bunch of other stuff it's simply in the past now...
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