|
|
Post by weaponx23 on Jun 2, 2008 15:03:52 GMT -5
Logan always had a major crush on Jean ever since he joined the X-men. What are the major reasons why he loved her. Is it because she reminded him of Rose, his late childhood friend and first love?
|
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jun 5, 2008 14:12:50 GMT -5
Well, it's kind'a hard to say why anybody loves anybody, but yeah, that'd pretty much be my take on it. Keep in mind that (as far as we know) Logan had no conscious memory of Rose when he fell for Jean. What he did know was that his love was a death sentence. Every time.
(I'd also put Heather Hudson in the category of "Rose substitutes" as a nurturing, gentle red-head who Logan has strong feelings for, but who chooses another tall, dark-haired man.)
Back in the '70's when I first started reading X-Men and Wolverine had just joined the team I couldn't for the life of me wrap my adolescent mind around why Logan would go for the team leader's girlfriend - who was clearly in a relationship - when Storm was on the team. (Hel-lo! Picture all the X-Women together and play "spot the goddess in this picture.") To me, Jean was a Girl Scout. She and Scott were boring. That's why I never got interested in the original team.
Years later, in a back-up story in Classic X-Men, they shed some light on the subject. Turns out Jean was attracted to Logan. And with his enhanced senses he couldn't help but feel like he had a chance with her. But she didn't want to screw-up what she already had with Scott. She even left the team for a while because of it. And when she came back and she became Phoenix Logan still felt like he had a shot. Then Phoenix died on the moon and everyone thought it was Jean.
Skip ahead a little to Inferno. Jean is back (the real Jean) and Scott is married to Madeline Pryor and they have a baby. At their first meeting Logan kisses Jean. But for her (now a part of X-Factor with the other original X-Men) it didn't matter. Scott's wife was the evil Goblyn Queen, their son was sent into the future, and Scott and Jean picked-up where they left off, and eventually married.
But the point is that Jean was the first woman in Logan's life who broke the pattern. Yes, she died violently, but not because of Logan's enemies. And most importantly - she came back!
Finally we have Wolverine: Origin, and the introduction of Rose, the "proto-Jean." The unending, tragic pattern of Logan's life began with her. And to me, this explained it all. Even if he can't consciously remember Rose, Logan knows on some level. And Jean represents "Rose perfected" - everything he loved in a form that can never be permanently taken from him.
It's going to be interesting when (you know it's not "if") Jean/Phoenix returns. Scott is with Emma now, and marriage is 'til death do us part. Jean's last death dissolved the contract. But as in Phoenix: Endsong, we've seen that Jean and the Phoenix are essentially inseperable, and it's the woman Logan loves, not the cosmic entity.
|
|
|
|
Post by weaponx23 on Jun 5, 2008 18:52:23 GMT -5
I never did like Jean and Scott together, its looked kinda boring. Emma and Scott matches perfectly. Wolverine and Jean Aka. Pheonix do make a good couple. Both Jean and Logan are eternal lovers and I do mean "eternal".
Also Wolverine said in some issue of Ultimate X-men, that him and Jean are "old souls" they share the same struggle with their demons inside.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rose on Jun 7, 2008 15:57:41 GMT -5
I dunno, Logan isn't really an 'eternal souls' because Logan will eventually die...I think. i mean his aging process is just slowed, so he will get old. Verses the Phoenix who has no age...but it's still jean, and Logan will las much, much longer than Scott. And yes, Scott and Jean together are boring together. So when Jean comes back it will be pretty interesting. It always has been.
|
|
|
|
Post by weaponx23 on Jun 8, 2008 9:12:29 GMT -5
I dunno, Logan isn't really an 'eternal souls' because Logan will eventually die...I think. i mean his aging process is just slowed, so he will get old. Verses the Phoenix who has no age...but it's still jean, and Logan will las much, much longer than Scott. And yes, Scott and Jean together are boring together. So when Jean comes back it will be pretty interesting. It always has been. I don't know, I remember reading one comic book that Logan told Jean after she returned, its been 120 years. Logan looked pretty much the same. Logan is virtually Immortal with his healing abilities and it "retards" his aging process. |
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jun 8, 2008 16:08:02 GMT -5
I don't know, I remember reading one comic book that Logan told Jean after she returned, its been 120 years. Logan looked pretty much the same. Logan is virtually Immortal with his healing abilities and it "retards" his aging process. I think you're talking about Morrison's HERE COMES TOMORROW - being a future story, you can't really take much stock from it in relation to Logan's healing factor. Byrne & Claremont's DAYS OF FUTURE PAST was set around 40 years in the future IIRC and had Logan looking a good bit older than he did in Morrison's arc. Millar's upcoming OLD MAN LOGAN is 80 years in the future and has probably the 'oldest' Logan we've ever seen (outside Jenkin's THE END, but I don't think a time period was given for that). |
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jun 9, 2008 10:16:22 GMT -5
Logan was 210 in "The End" (according to Xavier in his head) and he looked to be in his 70's, which is pretty accurate. The rate at which Logan is seen to age in future stories is often inconsistent. Here I think Morrison missed the boat. If we base the rate of Logan's supressed aging on his current physical age vs. his presumed chronological age (111) then he's aging about one year in three. "Days of Future Past" was written before this precedent had been established so Logan looks older than he probably should. "Here Comes Tomorrow" was about 150 years in the future so Logan would be chronologically about 261 and should have looked much older (about 87) .
|
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jun 9, 2008 17:28:33 GMT -5
Can't agree with you there, Mega. Since DAYS OF FUTURE PAST came first, surely that IS the precedent, non? Anyway, I don't worry about the innaccuracies with stories set in the future; far as I'm concerned the whole point is to have fun with them and do things you couldn't normally do.
To attempt to keep this somewhat on topic (mea culpa), here's what I think is one of the best Logan thinking about Jean passages:
"...He told himself he was simply being responsible, but he acknowleged that it was also another way of getting close to her, which made his head shake in dismay. This wasn't like him, yet the impulses and emotions were too primal, too powerful to be ignored. Or denied. Guaranteed trouble, no doubt about that. No hope of a happy ending. He didn't care."
From the X-Men 2 novelization, written, naturally, by Chris Claremont.
|
|
|
|
Post by deepredtiger on Jun 14, 2009 23:09:06 GMT -5
well I read some of what you guys said. Personally I don't like Jean because she is too much of a tease. she KNOWs Logan likes her and she knows enough to understand in some way why. yet she holds this thing with Scot which is fine, but why doesn't she ever set Logan down and talk to him face to face telling him tho she feels for him he needs to stop trying to win her. She never really tells him that at all it's like she likes having him liking her because Scot IS boring and deep down inside Jean knows he is just as boring as she is, Logan on the other hand is FAR from boring. jean wants to have her cake and eat it too but comes off like she doesn't. See the point is, Logan would NOT think he had a chance if she didn't keep giving him a reason to think so. She can't hide her body's reactions when he is around, and Logan's heighten scenes can key in on every reaction. so it is JEAN's fault he thinks he has a chance. She's a tease and that's why I don't like her. If she wasn't so bored with scot she would tell Logan which train to catch instead of kissing him back when he is naughty and steals a kiss, then try to blame that on him like he did that alone. I can't stand girls that play games with guys like that.
Heehee sory I get carred away at times, could be reading too much in it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jun 15, 2009 11:19:34 GMT -5
So you'd fall into the "Jean is the Red Menace" camp? I see where you're coming from and I understand the perspective. Jean "chose," but didn't really choose. Jean was interested but unwilling to sacrifice the only love she knew and relied on, and Logan was "on the back burner" and he knew it. And at his age he knew what his chances were. Maybe he figured that all he had to do was wait for "ol' One-Eye" to buy the farm and Jean's conflict would be resolved and he'd have her to himself.
I guess what might have been is a moot point. What interests me is what comes next. Jean let go of Scott, and gave him and Emma her blessing, when she realized she'd never be just Jean again. What happens when she inevitably returns? Will Logan still want her, or will he say, "Sorry, Darlin' - you ain't Rose."
|
|
|
|
Post by deepredtiger on Jun 15, 2009 12:28:31 GMT -5
Well Logan is a VERY loyal person from the way he is written. he was even willing to give Deathstrike a second chance, and she was not the same as the woman he once loved at the time. he even risked his life for a robot girl that everyone else insisted was not alive. Logan Is so d**ned true to himself it can even become annoying, like the time he married Viper, good grief. He's an extreme guy emotionally. I doubt he would hope in anyway Scot would die so he could have Jean. They have their problems over that subject, but Logan does have a real friendship with Scot and a sense of family on one level. He respected their marriage and backed off on hitting on Jean so hard.
My point is, with a guy THAT loyal chances arr he would Love Jean anyway as long as most of her WAS indeed the real Jean. Why he loves her? I hold the same thing as you, it's because of the Rose thing..at first... But Now i think he really does love her on some level, he knows her as Jean and jean has problems not that much different than his in the way she can't control herself fully. Neither can he. And if people like them loose control, then others will pay for it.
There is one indication he may not stay with Jean if she was not just jean. Remember Marry? Tifloyed (sp) Marry and then Bloody Marry? Well, Marry before Tifloyed came out fell in love with Logan, they had a thing But Tifloyed Marry did NOT love Logan and set him on fire, he left after he found he could never get Marry back, he tried and failed. Then Bloody Marry was born, Marry became Bloody Marry after her affair with Logan, Logan was long gone.
SOOOO if Jean comes aack and Is NOT Jean at all, and there is no way to get Jean back, and she is only Phenix, Then most likely Logan will not be in love with her. BUT, that's not to say he could never be. He may end up falling in love with her if she loved him truly even as Phenix. The whole Rose thing again.
I still Stand by Jean being a tease she knows too much about Logan and who he is, what he can do, Not to mention what her powers are as well... for her NOT to be a tease. She wants him to still like her like you said "on the back Burner" as a back up. That is to me is pathetic. It shows a weak personality in her. Logan's not stupid he KNOWS this about her... but he keeps hope because he wants his way, anyway he can get it. So he waits. Logan hates not getting his way because he hates loosing. If you notice most of the time when he wins over someone in a fight even if that person is stronger than him he still will win becuase he NEVER GIVES UP. Same thing here. It's who he is. Unless Jean her self tells him he has NO chance and to give it up... and means it, he will not give up. So she's a gutless scank. lol
As a loyal Woman who has BEEN there I can tell you one thing, you DON'T Kiss a guy back in ANYWAY when he steals a kiss and you have someone you are inlove with, UNLESS you WANT that guy too. THAT'S the give away here. And she can not hide her body's reactions, they tell on her. A guy like Logan with those super highten senses would go batty over that. Don't think she does not KNOW he goes batty just because she doesn't use it to her benifit. she KNOWS.
|
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jun 16, 2009 11:47:43 GMT -5
Logan only had a past with Yuriko Oyama in the animated series. In the comic book he never even heard of her until the moment she and her henchmen attacked him (and Heatehr Hudson) in Canada ( and that was before Lady Deathstrike took a trip to Spiral's "Body Shop").
When Logan first became attracted to Jean he really didn't like Scott. The respect Wolverine feels for Cyclops came only gradially. At that early stage Logan not only wouldn't have minded if something permanent happened to Scott - he probably wouldn't have minded being that "something." Only after Jean and Scott got married did Logan back off, for Jean's sake more than out of respect for his rival. By that time it was clear that Jean wouldn't ever really die, so it became a waiting game for Logan - Scott would get old and die long before Logan, and Jean would still be there. Logan would win by attrition and all he had to do was be patient.
With regard to Logan, love and loyalty: what about Mariko Yashida? Was Logan still in love with Jean while he was engaged to Mariko? He kissed Jean pretty good when he discovered she was alive during "Inferno" and Mariko was still alive at that point.
All behavior seeks to meet needs. That's the first law that governs all behavior of every living thing, and it's unbreakable. I don't see Jean as a "tease" because, to me, a "tease" is being emotionally manipulative for ego gratification (to meet self-image needs). Jean was never trying to manipulate Logan. Her feelings were real, and conflicted, from the start. She loved them both for different reasons. Each met different needs for her. Scott was familiarity, shared experiences, stablilty, loyalty, but he was repressed and came off as being aloof sometimes. Logan was exciting, passionate, confident, his needs were raw and intense and all focused on her. But she couldn't have them both. She even left the team to sort out her feelings for a while. Ultimately I think she chose Scott because he was there first. Betraying her first love would make her feel more guilty than rejecting Logan. Even though she knew it would hurt him, it hurt her as well. It's not a perfect solution, but for all her power Jean's only human.
So who's more "pathetic" - Jean for having conflicting feelings for Scott and Logan, but making a clear choice (marriage and fidelity) - or Logan for obsessing over a woman (young enough to be his great-granddaughter) who was in love with another man when he met her (and he knew it), and rejected him to reamin faithful to her first love? They're both human, and flawed. It's easier to feel sympathy for Logan because of all he's been through, but you can't blame either of them for not being able to control how they feel, only for what they choose to do about it. Logan can't help his feelings leaking out of his mind when he's around Jean any more than Jean can control her scent or body language around Logan. Each is aware of what the other feels, so was Jean continually "teasing" Logan with her mere prescence, or was he constantly "tempting" her with his?
|
|
|
|
Post by deepredtiger on Jun 16, 2009 12:39:53 GMT -5
LOL Ok Ok he can be just as bad as her( but thinking someone you loved is dead and seeing them alive is a very different emotion than wanting someone), I see it from your point too, yes that's true Logan can be pathetic too for going on about it when he knew she was taken. But even tho your right too, she still kissed him back which she should never have done in any way even if it is very hard for her not to. Maybe being a tease is a bit strong after seeing it throw your eyes, I agree and like her a little better from what you explained. But She still caused him to think he has chance because she kissed him back. that's a big no no when a guy wants you and you know he does. I totally understand her wanting him and then knowing she can not do this because she loves Scot, and that's what she should say and NEVER kiss the guy, good grief. that's playing with fire. Especial sense it or so bad she had to leave for a while or that Logan so nutty over her he can't stand it and she knows it. Does it make sense for her to kiss him back? Not to me it doesn't.
Judging from how you explain her, I think I would like the idea of her coming back and with no ties to Scot, but just be with Logan. That would work.
as far as her being too young for him, well just about everyone he goes with is too young for him, Women his age or even close to his age are dead or could NEVER keep up with him, we can't fault him for that.
Just so you know, woman do keep guys on the back burner as a safety net, they do it all the time and it doesn't have to be in a selfish way, they just see the chance to always have someone and take it. And that's why most of the female fans of Wolverine don't care for Jean too much.
|
|
