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Post by evolution on Nov 5, 2008 20:44:43 GMT -5
It seems no matter how many times Wolverine is shot, set on fire, clubed, stabed, and broken he always comes back, well most of the time.
It seems the only way to perminately kill Wolverine is by decapitation, (as seen in Wolverine #55 (series 3) but done to Sabretooth).
In Wolverine (series 3) #42 of 43, Nitro uses his mutant powers and just burns wolverine down to his bare Adamantium skeleton, and yet he returns (maybe the Adamantium covering his skull wasn't burned on the inside, but just on the outside).
In Wolverine: Origins #23 (Deadpool shot Wolverine right in the face and yet Wolverine returned).
Wolverine has been known to survive a direct hit from the Hulk and Juggernaut.
In another story Wolverine had lost an eye and yet it regenerated, because of his healing factor.
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Post by Megalictis on Nov 6, 2008 11:42:21 GMT -5
There are a couple ways to kill Wolverine besides decapitation. He can apparently drown (seen both in Wolverine (vol2) during Acts of Vengance when he fought Tiger Shark and in Wolverine: Origins in the fight with Deadpool). We've seen him incinnerated to nothing and stay dead (by a Sentinel in Days of Future Past), and the survival of the fight with Nitro was due to two factors: some of his brain was protected by his adamantium skull and Azrael's pact allowed him a "second chance" every time he died. That pact has now been rendered null and void. We've also seen him killed by Kitty Pryde phasing him into a solid surface and leaving him there. I think it all comes down to either destroying every living cell in his body, or creating and perpetuating a condition that results in brain-death long enough to overcome his healing factor (no oxygen, fire, possible extreme cold, molecular disruption, decapitation).
And of course if you neutralize his healing factor somehow he'll eventually die of adamantium poisoning.
Personally I think there are lots of characters who could potentially kill Wolverine (those with range-attacks having an advantage) - fortunately many of them are X-Men.
For example:
If Magneto had filled-in Wolverine's skull with adamantium instead of just removing it (or seperated all his atoms like he did to Apocalypse in AoA);
Polaris - see above;
Cyclops blows his head off with an optic blast;
Phoenix - scatters his atoms across the cosmos or drops him into a star;
Iceman - freezed every cell in his body (causing them all to burst) and leaves him buried under enough ice to prevent him from healing before he suffocates;
Xavier - turns off his brain (it's not clear if Emma or any other telepath is up to this);
Nightcrawler - teleports away with just Logan's head;
Colossus - (or any sufficiently strong character) tears him apart;
Kitty - phasing him into a wall or floor as mentioned above;
Jubilee - detonating every atom in his body at the sub-atomic level;
Magma - dragging him into the earth's molten core;
Dust - scouring every bit of meat off his adamantium bones (or just his skull);
heck even Archangle might get away with a fly-by decapitation with his "Death" wings.
I'm sure we could come up with lots of other plausible scenarios.
There are also occasions when writers use his healing factor in ways that don't make sense. For example, when Wolverine gets blown up, what keeps his limbs attached (his bones are adamantium but the ligaments that connect them have to be flexible tissue). Or when Morrison (and then Way) have him eating his own arm to survive (his body will just have to recycle the protein and calories he just consumed to heal the damage so there's no net gain and actually a net loss of body mass). What makes this so stupid is that his body would naturally begin digesting his own muscles if he were starving (autophagia) and it would be less painful and more efficient (he'd last longer). But this does point to yet another way to kill Wolverine: starvation.
Finally there are still unanswered questions about his healing factor (in canon if not in interviews). For example: Can Wolverine regenerate his whole body (without adamantium obviously) from just a severed head? Is there any chance the headless body would regenerate a new head (two Wolverines)? Will he regrow entire list limbs if the bones are removed as well as the flesh?
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Post by CongoJack on Nov 6, 2008 15:11:58 GMT -5
and the survival of the fight with Nitro was due to two factors: some of his brain was protected by his adamantium skull and Azrael's pact allowed him a "second chance" every time he died. Also because Marc Guggenheim did not understand an old X-Men issue by Chris Claremont. Speaking of Guggenheim, does anyone else think it's weird that Lord Shingen is running around the Marvel Universe again? It just seems so ...wrong to me. |
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Post by Megalictis on Nov 7, 2008 11:03:53 GMT -5
An old UX-M Annual (#11?) where a drop of a dying Wolverine's blood falling on a magic alien gem, which both restored him to life and briefly granted him godlike power (with which he simply made it like the whole adventure never happenned). He referred to that in an interview as the inspiration for his story but never references the event in the actual story. I read that interview and ranted on and on that he misunderstood the event as being an illustration of Wolverine's healing factor at work. And after it was all said and done I felt like I had been played (and I give Guggenheim credit if he planned it all this way, 'cuz he pulled it off).
I was actually surprised and pleased that Guggenheim did everything I hoped in that arc: he identified the increasing effectiveness of the way Wolverine's healing factor has been depicted over the decades as an increasing problem (in story terms) and he "put the genie back in the bottle" as best he could. He intruduced Azrael as a factor (to blame) and ended Logan's relationship with him. No more "second chance to live" - Wolverine just has to be more careful not to die as often now.
Resurrections generally bother me, but I kinda' thought of this one as an "Easter egg." When Shingen was intruduced as Mariko's "long presumed dead" father it planted the seed of the idea that The Hand had resurrected him before, and "Enemy of the State" built on that aspect of The Hand's power. Since The Hand has no clear leaders at the moment, Shingen can move into the power vacuum created by the death of Skrull-Elektra and give a "face" to the nameless pack of enemies. I'm just surprised Shingen hasn't appeared since. I was actually more bothered by the mass-resurection of former X-villains in X-Force (Steven Lang, Bolivar Trask, William Stryker, Graydon Creed, Bastion and even Magus).
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Post by CongoJack on Nov 7, 2008 11:41:57 GMT -5
I was actually surprised and pleased that Guggenheim did everything I hoped in that arc: he identified the increasing effectiveness of the way Wolverine's healing factor has been depicted over the decades as an increasing problem (in story terms) and he "put the genie back in the bottle as best he could. He intruduced Azrael as a factor (to blame) and ended Logan's relationship with him. No more second chance to live - Wolverine just has to be more careful not to die as often now.
I think we're coming from the same place - I don't like Wolverine to be as invulnerable as Superman. The difference is I didn't think it needed to be explained. Writers kept powering up Wolverine for no apparent reason other than I suppose to appeal to the fanboys and the character's ever growing popularity. IMO you don't need to take six issues to explain (in-story) why that's happened - you just write him correctly (See Whedon's opening arc of ASTONISHING X-MEN) and get editors that do their jobs and enforce it. But, yeah, I suppose if that's what it takes to get other writers to 'play by the rules' in today's Marvel then he did a good thing.
Since The Hand has no clear leaders at the moment, Shingen can move into the power vacuum created by the death of Skrull-Elektra and give a face to the nameless pack of enemies. I'm just surprised Shingen hasn't appeared since.
Bloody hell, you might just be on to something. Are you reading Brubaker's DAREDEVIL? Wolverine looks set to appear later on in the current arc - "Lady Bullseye" - and the story is basically about the fallout of the Skrullektra revelation and it's impact on the Hand. I wonder if that'll be Shingen's next appearance. Now I'm actually hoping it will be...
I was actually more bothered by the mass-resurection of former X-villains in X-Force (Steven Lang, Bolivar Trask, William Stryker, Graydon Creed, Bastion and even Magus).
They ressurected Stryker?? Weren't they the ones that killed him in the first place? I haven't been reading X-FORCE - but I must say I'm quite happy to hear that Bolivar Trask is about again.
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Post by Megalictis on Nov 7, 2008 13:59:23 GMT -5
I haven't been reading Daredevil, but now I might give this arc a look.
X-Force is really pretty good. At least I've liked it so far - lots of stuff happens in a short time. On the down side you've got lots of "recycled villains and some occasionally confusing fight scenes. But on the positive side you get Wolverine leading a "secret" team (and it's getting larger and herder to hide), conflict with Cyclops, characer development for Wolfsbane (who recently ate her father!), Warpath, and X-23, Angel turning back into Archangel (and Apocalypse's programming becomming an issue), and loads of conflict. Oh, and Domino.
And yes, Stryker has been reanimated by Bastion using Magus' techno-organic cells (he still looks human). In a sense Bastion is "returning the favour" since Stryker was the one who salvaged the Nimrod Sentinel. After Stryker's death his followers stole and attached Bastion's severed head (which had been in SHIELD custody since O:ZT) to the robot's body. Nimrod then competely reconfigured into Bastion (who was originally an amalgam of Nimrod and the Master Mold created by the Siege Perilous).
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Post by CongoJack on Nov 8, 2008 7:32:01 GMT -5
I think my favourite Wolverine healing feat is as much a triumph of the human spirit as it was his mutant powers. UNCANNY X-MEN #205 when Deathstrike and his Reavers put a hurt on Logan so bad he forgot who he was, and how to speak English. By the end of the issue, Logan had dispatched with all of them. I haven't been reading Daredevil, but now I might give this arc a look. Logan hasn't appeared yet, but he has been mentioned in the first issue of the arc. Michael Lark's art:  |
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Post by Megalictis on Nov 11, 2008 18:24:56 GMT -5
CongoJack, I just want to say thanks for reminding me of UNCANNY X-MEN #205! When you mentioned Reavers I thought "wait a minute, were the X-Men even in Australia in #205?" So I pulled the issue out of my filing cabinet and - much to my delight - discovered the cover by Barry Windsor-Smith! And even better - the whole issue (pencils, inks and colour) are all Windsor-Smith! I must admit my nostalgic recollection of this issue from 22 years ago was vague - I had also forgotten that this was the introduction of Deathdtrike as a cyborg, or that Spiral had promised that the process was reversible. I forgot that Macon, Cole and Reese were working for Deathstrike at this point (they had yet to merge with the Australian Reavers). And I don't remember if I ever realized that they never mentioned (aside from the hint of the front cover) what was done to Wolverine to drive him into a feral state.
To drag this discussion back on topic (though Deathstrike probably deserves her own thread) do you suppose this could count as an example of Logan's mind trying to "heal-over" traumatic memories? There's some hints that a feral period may typically follow such healing-factor-induced amnesia in Logan. For example, the way Logan runs off to live with the wolves immediately after Rose died. The damage done to his memory is in itself a sort of limitation to his healing factor.
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Post by CongoJack on Nov 12, 2008 14:28:54 GMT -5
And I don't remember if I ever realized that they never mentioned (aside from the hint of the front cover) what was done to Wolverine to drive him into a feral state. I read a review of that issue once that noted the poor structure of "Wounded Wolf!" and I couldn't have disagreed more. The reader did enter 'midway' into the story but that is where the REAL STORY starts. I'm not going to turn down more beautiful pages of art by BWS by any means but seeing page upon page of him being mutilated was not necessary. To drag this discussion back on topic (though Deathstrike probably deserves her own thread) do you suppose this could count as an example of Logan's mind trying to "heal-over" traumatic memories? There's some hints that a feral period may typically follow such healing-factor-induced amnesia in Logan. For example, the way Logan runs off to live with the wolves immediately after Rose died. The damage done to his memory is in itself a sort of limitation to his healing factor. As with the situation presented in ORIGIN, Logan does 'snap-out' from his period of feral regression but it's different from the Rose situation as Logan eventually does remember what happened that made him forget who he was. That right there is a complicated sentence but hopefully I haven't made it too indecipherable. I suppose it could count as an example of Logan's mind 'healing' itself from pain, at least on a short term basis. I wonder if Claremont had this theory in mind before (was it Tieri?) introduced it. |
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