Jean?

[Rose]

After looking through Phoenix war&end songs, it appears that eventually Jean will come back...I think...so should she and Logan get together now that Scott and Emma are 'together'? (and yes, I realize I spelled here 'hear' in the poll question)

[Megalictis]

This question really makes me think! I really hope they don't bring back Jean too soon. Between the Decimation and the big shake-up that's supposed to come out of Messiah Complex, I think another Jean/Phoenix resurrection is a little too much right now. I think they should let the dust settle and allow readers to think they've found a state of stability for once (it's been years since there were stable X-Teams). Then if they bring Jean back it can shake things up again.

Years ago (even from the beginning) I was dead set agains Jean and Wolverine. Why the heck would he fall for the team leader's (who had the personality of a Girl Scout Troop Leader back then) when Storm was on the team? (Yes, I was a "Ro/Lo-shipper" 20 years before anyone coined the term). Okay, Logan has admitted he knew he never had a chance with her. In any case, Claremont introduced Mariko and that relationship kept me satisfied for many years, even after Jean died and came back to life. And even after Mariko died, Logan had accepted that Scott and Jean were married and he didn't have any chance coming between them. For a long time that triangle was dead as far as I could see and I was glad of it because it never got Logan anywhere and I felt he really needed to move on.

In recent years we've had several events that have re-defined the whole relationship. Origin gave us the first glimpse of Rose, and that changed the way I looked at Logan's attraction to/obsession with Jean, especially Jean-as-Phoenix. Logan was still a man with big chunks of his past missing, but one thing he knew for sure was that his love was a curse - every woman he ever loved died, violently, and he could never stop it. Add Rose to this puzzle and Jean makes perfect sense: she's the doppleganger of the first love he can't even remember and she can't ever truly die. I thought that if Logan could just remember Rose he'd understand this.

Tieri teased us in Wolverine (vol2) #176 with the Red-Haired-Angel in Logan's afterlife. She gets Logan to admit he still loves Jean and always will, but abmits the one fact that could help him get past her when it's too late for him to hear: "I'm not Jean."

Morrisson used Emma to split Scott and Jean and threw the whole status quo out the window. But before this new twist could be explored at length he killed Jean. Again. He also made her one of many Phoenixes (in the White Hot Room). And he apparently made Jean and Phoenix inseperable (to the extent that Jean will only return as Phoenix, though Phoenix may return without Jean). But one thing is clear: Scott and Jean are over. (Married " 'til death do us part").

M-Day brought the return of Logan's memories, but no "Aha! Jean reminded me o' Rose!" moment.

Finally in Phoenix: End Song Jean asserts control of the Phoenix long enough to beg Logan to kill her. Which he does. A couple dozen times. With no lasting effect. Finally he got tired of it and asked her to get someone else to kill her from now on. Between this and Morrisson's run I get the feeling that Logan is kind'a over Jean (or at least Phoenix).

So if Jean were to come back as Phoenix now who would she turn to: would she eliminate Emma to be with Scott or reject Scott to be with Logan? If she chooses Scott would he leave Emma? It'd be par for the course for him, but I think he's matured some and might actually stand by Emma now. Otherwise Emma would likely leave or be forced out, and we'd have a situation where it looks like Phoenix is taking control of the X-Men. (Phoenix is ultimately always the antagonist because she's just too damn dangerous to exist on earth). But if she chooses Logan would he reject her too? If she came to him as Phoenix, probably (if she let him). But if Jean came to Logan and told him that his love was the only thing giving her the strength to fight the Phoenix inside her, he'd rather die than ever abandon her. And this could also divide the X-Men because there's not room at the mansion for Scott and Emma and Logan and Jean, leaving the rest of the X-Men to choose sided. It can only end tragically for Logan, unless it results in...

Best case scenario: Jean and Phoenix return seperately (i.e. Jean is alive again but the Phoenix Force is clearly manifesting in another host, maybe Rachel). For the first time in a long time Jean is really just Jean. She's already accepted her marriage is over and I don't think she'd try to come between Scott and Emma. But for Jean and Logan it'd be a chance at a fresh start, the first real chance they ever had. They'd probably have to leave the X-Men, and it'd cause some tension (which in comic book writing equals story potential), but it might be the first time since I-don't-know-when that Logan actually had a chance at a long, happy relationship.

[Rose]

My Gosh Megalictis, you greatly amuse me you know that? lol, again, you answered my question perfectly! But I do have a few similar others...how could Jean come back separately? I suppose once Phoenix finds her 'missing pieces' (What ever the heck those might be...besides Jean being something close to the heart' which again makes no sense to me' i know very little...) Anyway...Phoenix might take what she needs from Jean an' leave her severely damaged (Weak, whatever you wanna call it, probably along the line of needing rescuing [X-men style] ...if it's possible for them to part...hmm, that's be an interesting thing to add to my fan fic...mind if I use it?

P.S. I love the..."Aha! Jean reminded me o' Rose!"

[Megalictis]

Aw, Rose, use whatever you want. I've been breeding "plot bunnies" for years over at the W&J board.

As far as how Jean could come back seperate from the Phoenix... no obvious answer comes to mind. The whole Phoenix concept has been changed and modified so many times I really don't have a grasp of it any more. In Phoenix: Endsong we say that the Shi'ar had a way of causing the Phoenix to manifest before it was ready, and this "immature" Phoenix assumed different telepathic hosts (Emma and her little clones) so apparently she can manifest in the avatar of her choice, female telepaths being most suitable.

My best guess would be some convoluted Claremont-esque situation where Rachel has to face some power (like the anti-Phoenix) and tries to manifest the Phoenix Force as she once did. (Note: Rachel is currently fighting Emperor Vulcan with Alex & Lorna in Shi'ar space so this story might have to wait until that arc finishes) Somehow this results in Jean returning as Phoenix. But Jean is still too weak (it's still to soon for her to be back) and Rachel assumes the full Phoenix Force, defeats the enemy and heals Jean. Rachel is delighted to have "mom" back, and I imagine Xavier and most of the X-Men (especially Hank, Warren, Bobby and Ororo) feel the same. But it would create a very akward situation for Scott and Emma, and the New X-Men would likely side with the only leaders they've ever known.

While she no longer manifests the Phoenix, Jean is still a telepath and telekenetic. But how do you re-start your life after you've died? Her whole family has been wiped out, but her presence causes tension at the mansion. Is her marriage to Scott legally nullified? Can she even use her old social security number? Is she in violation of the SHRA? And what has coming back without the Phoenix done to her emotionally and spiritually?

Fortunately Jean has a place to go where she can get help with that last problem and not be a constant unpleasant reminder to Scott and Emma - The New Avengers. Wolverine's membership gives her access to Dr. Strange, who helps her cope with her latest resurrection.

Want to throw in another twist? What if Jean's return to life causes her to start remembering things that happenned long before she was born? (See where this is leading?)

[Rose]

Interesting...hmm, but as far as the memories before her time. Are you talking about shared memories between she and Phoenix?

I looked up Phoenix' history on marvel, and apparently she used to be able to manifest without a host...well, not so much manifest...but she had a normal form at one time or another...my question is though, what do oyu think the point of the Phoenix really was?

[Megalictis]

...my question is though, what do oyu think the point of the Phoenix really was?

I don't understand the question. Do you mean "what was the point of having Jean become/be replaced by the Phoenix within the original storyline back in the 1970's?" or "what function does the Phoenix Force serve as a cosmic power in the Marvel Universe (as compared to Galactus for example)?"

[Rose]

Mmm, both, ( just because I love the explanations you come up with...) That and...what about the anti phoenix?

[Megalictis]

Aw, thanks!

Okay I'll take a stab at this.

When Jean crashed the space shuttle into Jamaca Bay (saving the X-Men) and then shot out of the water displaying the raptor effect for the first time and declared herself "PHOENIX!" - that was supposed to be Jean! The stress of telekenetically shielding the shuttle from cosmic radiation during re-entry had pushed her mutation to it's full potential. There was no thought that Jean was posessed by an alien superbeing or cosmic force. The Shi'ar had legands and prophesies and she fit the description, but Phoenix was just the name Jean took. And she was pretty much the most powerful being on earth. As "Phoenix" Jean healed the M'Kran crystal and saved the universe. Then Jason Wyngard of the Hellfire Club psychically manipulated Jean and she cracked and became "Dark Phoenix" at which point she devours a star on a whim and kills 5 billion sentient beings in the Shi'ar galaxy. Finally she broke free of Wyngarde's illusions and the X-Men beat the Hellfire Club. Then she all but beat the X-Men until Xavier managed to erect barriers in her mind. But Lilandra shows up with the Imperial Guard and demand to put Phoenix on trial. They kidnap the X-Men and sentence Jean to die. Xavier challenges Lilandra to decide her fate by combat and their proxies (X-Men and Imperial Guard) fight in ancient ruins on the moon. The X-Men get beaten until Jean goes all Phoenix and clears the board. It's clear that no one has the power to pass judgement on her - except her. Jean briefly re-asserts control over her Phoenix/Dark Phoenix personality and uses an alien weapon to disintegrate herself. Her death was shocking and tragic and heroic and served as the climax of what may be the most famous comic book story in history.

But it wasn't what was originally intended. I think the idea to make Jean into Phoenix was probably Claremont's as he's famous for creating very powerful female characters. Byrne thought she was too powerful to function as a hero - who could challenge her? And who needs the rest of the team? Having her eat a star was his idea. Her corruption and eventual downfall was seen as a way out of this problem. She would lose all her power as a result. But Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter felt this wasn't enough of a price to pay for genocide, so they killed her.

Flash-forward a few years and the X-Men's roster changes to exclude Cyclops. With all the original characters free Marvel decides to reunite the founding X-Men as X-Factor: mutants posing as mutant-hunters to track down mutants and "arrest" them while secretly rescuing them and carrying on Xavier's tradition of training young mutants. Three little problems:
1. Jean is dead;
2. Bringing her back doesn't absolve her of the deaths of 5 billion D'Bari; and
3. Scott is married to Madeline Pryor and has a son (Nathan/Cable).

Their solution - The Phoenix Force - is a retcon, as is virtually every detail about her. The avengers found a coccoon at the bottom of Jamaica Bay and bring it to Reed Richards. Reed gets it open and finds Jean Grey inside. From there it would be explained that an immortal cosmic entity replaced Jean by transforming itself into an exact duplicate of Jean (mentally and emotionally as well as physically), then hid the real Jean when she ditched the shuttle. The Phoenix believed it was Jean Grey from that moment until it dematerilaized itself on the moon. The Phoenix (being indestructible) then sought to merge with Jean Grey (still in a healing coccoon under water) but Jean rejected it, so it merged with Madeline Pryor (Jean's clone). The Phoenix killed the D'Bari and died on the moon, not Jean. That's her original purpose in terms of the growing X-universe storyline.

As for the function or the Phoenix Force as a Cosmic Power relative to the other Cosmic Powers - that's harder to pin down. Every writer who touches the character seems to re-invent the character or re-define the rules. What does remain constant is power, which is virtually limitless. It is not so much the source of power as the potential to draw power from any source in linitless quantities and use it for virtually any purpose imaginable.

The Cosmic Powers are the most powerful beings in the Marvel universe. Even Thor, who's a god, is insignificant compared to this lot. Like all the Cosmic Powers, Phoenix has no true form. It is the personified conscious embodment of a fundamental universal concept. In the Marvel Universe for example we have Eternity and Infinity (personifying all time and space - all that is) Death and Oblivion (the end of all that is and the adsence of everything), Lord Chaos and Master Order (archetypal beings that govern the dynamic balance). Then there are singular beings that seem to serve a unique purpose. Galactus is the last surviving mortal from the previous universe reborn to consume the life energy of worlds for an ultmate purpose even he doesn't understand, yet somehow his existence is necessary to the universe. Rachel, using the power of the Phoenix Force actually fought and defeated Galactus once, only to have him reveal that in doing so she had drawn on life energy reserved for those not yet born, thus preventing their existence. In one rendition of the event, it is the Phoenix who allows Eternity to spare Galen (as he was once known) from the destruction of the previous universe thus allowing the continiuty of life from one incarnation of the universe to the next.

Perhaps the most consistently powerful Cosmic Power is the Living Tribunal which serves as the ultimate arbiter in disputes which would threaten the continuity of existence throughout the whole omniverse. It claims it's power comes "from on high." (Only Thanos has ever held Absolute Power, and then only briefly).

But it is possible that the Phoenix Force holds a position equal to the Living Tribunal. She has complete control of matter at a sub-atomic level. Her ability to wield energy has no practical limits beyond her imagination and her will. She has power over life and death, and can even manipulate or expunge entire timelines (perhaps making her more powerful than Eternity and Death). She can manifest anywhere in the universe at will (thus displaying dominion over Infinity). And she apparently cannot not exist - the Phoenix is an integral part of the omniverse. All the universes that make up all the dimesnions of the omniverse are born, die, and are reborn in an endless cycle. The Phoenix is reborn in the void between these two states. It is the nexus of all psyonic energy that has or will ever exist in every reality of the omniverse and the personified manifestation of life itself and the guardian of Creation. She has the power and "authority" to destroy and re-create any part of creation that becomes "obsolete."

This boigraphy by Peter Luzifer of UXM.net explains (better than I can) how all the various retconns work together to define the Phoenix Force as she is now interpretted. Please not that the article was last updated on Feb 21, 2003 and does not refer to details revealed in Morisson's X-Men, Phoenix: Endsong, and Phoenix: Warsong.

www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60

Morrisson adds such details as "the White Hot Room" at the "heart of al creation" where all the past and future hosts of the Phoenix Force seem to manifest, and the new title "White Phoenix of the Crown" the meaning of which is anybody's guess.

[Rose]

(Head spinning, trying hard to focus) Wow, that's...ok wow. I think I knew most, or at least a good part of that, but what's amazing is that you typed that all...interesting...very interesting. (Now thinking of new thread to test you with...nope I got nothing.)

Seriously, the Phoenix story is a very hard one to wrap your mind around...hmm...but anyway thx!

[deepredtiger]

I don't like her, never did. I hope she stays gone.