|
Post by Rose on Jan 4, 2008 21:10:45 GMT -5
Ok, so we've all heard the rumors, and previews of what's coming up in Logan's story/life; but my question is, what do YOU want to happen next? Regardless to any ongoing or upcoming storyline?
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 5, 2008 12:11:35 GMT -5
I'm not really sure that I fully understand the question, but I'll try to give my best answer.
I want the Wolverine: Origins story to be concluded - soon. I don't buy the book anymore, nor do I have any interest in how it plays out. However, the people who bought it need a conclusion. If rumours are true, then Way and Dillon will be leaving the book after the Deadpool arc to do a Deadpool ongoing. I'd give them another five issue arc for Way to finnish his story, then I'd can it and never ever talk about it again.
For Wolverine, you either do one of three things: 1) Get a regular creative team - The main Wolerine book has not had a purpose for a very long time, give it one. The best guy for this is Larry Hama. Wolverine, until Hama took over, was a complete mess - there were about four good stories after it started as an ongoing. Hama devilered an constantly amazing book for years. And get Mark Texeira and Javier Saltares for the art. After reading some of his interviews, I have no doubt Hama will willingly take over Wolverine again.
2) Done-in-one or mini-series-esque stories done by various creative teams. This seems to be what Marvel is doing, but they're not doing it right - they need some serious quality control. The best Wolverine stories since Greg Rucka left the book have been Wolverine #33 (Millar and Andrews), Wolverine #41 (Moore and Smith - truly amazing story), and Wolverine: Annual #1 (Hurwitz and Frusin). Get top-class writers and artists in to tell their Wolverine story and then out they go. Oh, and Massimiliano Frezzato needs to draw Logan again, get him!
3) Can the book. Wolverine appears in loads of other titles. If the book isn't good enough for the character, then it shouldn't exist.
I'd like to see Logan appearing regularly in Brubaker's Uncanny X-Men, and this looks like what will be happening. I hope that the team for that series is somewhat similar to the Days of Future Past team + Cyclops. I'm not so hot on Logan being in Bendis' New Avengers, because I don't think he has a good enough handle on Logan to deserve to write him, so I'd get him outta there.
|
|
|
Post by Rose on Jan 5, 2008 12:22:44 GMT -5
Ok, as far as Origins go, they seriously need to take a step back and say, ok, where are we going with this. Really, I don't think a whole lot of questions have been answered...some, but not many...
I have really nothing to say about the wolverine book, I haven't been paying attention lately...
Then there's the whole avengers...or new avengers, or whatever he's in, again, not really paying attention; but if you think Bendis' doesn't have a good enough handle...man I hate when you read something, and you're like: "He wouldn't do that." You really have to pay close attention to Logan himself in order to understand how to write him and his actions... As far as seeing him more in uncanny, that'd be nice.
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 5, 2008 12:39:24 GMT -5
Ok, as far as Origins go, they seriously need to take a step back and say, ok, where are we going with this. Really, I don't think a whole lot of questions have been answered...some, but not many... It's been a massive failure as far as I'm concerned. I actually think it started out with promise - Wolverine got his memories back and he's gonna go get the people behind Weapon X but it oh-so-quickly deteriorated into Way's vechile for crudely deconstructing old storylines for no other reason than the sake of it. Then there's the whole avengers...or new avengers, or whatever he's in, again, not really paying attention; but if you think Bendis' doesn't have a good enough handle...man I hate when you read something, and you're like: "He wouldn't do that." You really have to pay close attention to Logan himself in order to understand how to write him and his actions... Megalictis raised some good points on my Avengers question to the board about Logan's involvment with the Avengers (and I should really have posted my thoughts on that there, sorry). For the most part, I like the idea of it. My biggest problem with it is that it is at the forefront of all the recent Marvel events, and for someone like me that's torture because I don't much like any of Marvel's big events. It's good that Logan gets to interact with other favourite characters of mine like Spider-Man and Iron Fist, but it's plots put me off the book. The good thing about Bendis writing Wolverine is that there are some funny lines - Wolverine hasn't been really funny since Peter David was writing him.
|
|
|
Post by Rose on Jan 6, 2008 14:44:51 GMT -5
I like it when Logan's funny, he has his own sense of humor just in the way he gives his remarks...take that away and I think you take away at least a good chunk of his character... The way I see it, Way's supposedly doing the best he can, you gotta give him credit for trying; but if some one who is clearly better could take it over (I honestly don't know the names of any writers, artists, etc but you get the idea) then let 'em at it right?
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 6, 2008 15:00:52 GMT -5
The way I see it, Way's supposedly doing the best he can, you gotta give him credit for trying; but if some one who is clearly better could take it over (I honestly don't know the names of any writers, artists, etc but you get the idea) then let 'em at it right? I don't know...Way's stories have massively put me off the idea of Logan having his memories back. But if they were to continue witrh the Origins series, I'd want Chris Claremont or John Byrne to take over. Byrne was the co-plotter and artist of Uncanny X-Men who came in in the late 70s/early 80s and gave Wolverine a lot more depth and made him into the really popular character that he is now - but there's no chance of him working at Marvel while Quesada is editor in chief. Claremont would be great because he knows everything about the X-Men and loves the character. I think he could tell a good tale. Another option (sorry to sound like a broken record with this one) is Hama. Hama introduced many of themes and characters that Way is dealing with now and could jump right back into it. But honestly I'd prefer the series was discontinued.
|
|
|
Post by Rose on Jan 6, 2008 21:51:42 GMT -5
That part about Hama not working @ marvel as long as Joe Q. is around, why is that?
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 7, 2008 13:56:35 GMT -5
That part about Hama not working @ marvel as long as Joe Q. is around, why is that? It was Byrne who won't work at Joey Q's Marvel, although I don't think Hama has worked there since Quesada took over either. Quesada cancelled Byrne's book ' X-Men: Hidden Years' when he took over as editor-in-chief, despite it turning a profit. Since then, Byrne has vowed not to work at Marvel while Quesada is still there.
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jan 7, 2008 17:14:25 GMT -5
quote]If rumours are true, then Way and Dillon will be leaving the book after the Deadpool arc to do a Deadpool ongoing. I'd give them another five issue arc for Way to finnish his story, then I'd can it and never ever talk about it again.[/quote]
This is the first I've heard of that! If true I have some reservations about this, just as I have reservations about Way's own ability to create a logical and cohesive chain-of-events from Logan's past. My only hope for the series is that by the end Way will have resolved what appear at present to be impossible contradictions in his plot. If thus rumor is true then the best case scenario is that Marvel finally figured out that Way has screwed-up the timeline so that only time-travel will explain it and is putting on the brakes in the hopes of explaining this mess.
But who could do it? Wolverine's continuity is possibly the most complicated in the whole Marvel universe because they've tied him to so many events (both real and fictitious). My first thought is maybe Tieri because of his recent involvement in so much Weapon X related information. But is Tieri up to this?
As much as I'd love to see the old "dream team" of Hama and Texiera finish the series I have reservations about Hama's willingness to catch-up on 20 years of continuity (and he's need to to be able to finish this). Hama created so much of the best of Wolverine's background material but he's never placed a lot of value on continuity - he's the one who gave us the "Silver Fox conundrum" after all.
Then there's the other "dream team" - the men who got me hooked on the X-Men back in the late '70's - Claremont and Byrne (and Terry Austin, whose meticulous, detailed inking showed us just how hairy Logan really is). Claremont is famous for his abilty to devise intricate, complex, interwoven plotlines and a mind capable of handling numerous details. He's also reputed to forget some of those details and this is a huge project to dump on him. And of course then there's John Byrne - who refused to let anybody kill off the only Canadian in the book. He's as much a co-plotter as an artist, but as Congo Jack pointed out he's mad at Queseda - and Byrne's reputed to have quite a temper. Speaking of which - would Byrne and Claremont even be willing to work together?
My greatest concern is that Marvel would hand Wolverine: Origins to some "big name" who'll ignore the whole picture, focus on an obscure detail and run off in some direction that "looks cool" but explains nothing (and leaves only more contradictions) - just to "leave their mark" on the Wolverine mythos. Either that or Marvel throws its collective hands up and ret-cons the whole series as a dream (creating a problem for other titles that already refer to these events).
One way or another Marvel has to resolve this and crate a satisfying conclusion to Wolverine: Origins. Until then most of Logan's big-name enemies are tied to the story and can't be used to any significant degree.
In Wolverine's own title I think Marvel needs to steer clear of "big names" trying to "leave their mark" and go back to what made the title work. Enough of "Wolverine can't ever die because he killed the Angel of Death" or "Wolverine kills Sabretooth and they both evolved from dogs!" What made this title interesting weren't the shocking revelations or historic battles, it was Logan and the exploration of his inner conflicts through the resolution of external conflicts. He's got his own agenda and his own priorities (and a pile of enemies) that have nothing to do with the X-Men (or the Avengers). Wolverine's solo title is also the best venue to focus on his relationships with the people who mean the most to Logan outside the clutter of a team book. And even with Origins ongoing he can still tie-up lots of old loose ends - LL&L, Silver Samurai, Amiko, Omega Red, Viper, Madripoor, the two Silver Foxes, the Native, etc.
He has all his memories back. Superheroes are compelled to work for the government (at least in the US) and mutants are on the verge of extinction. The rules have changed. So after all the dust settles from the "major events" where does that leave Logan? With M-Day and all the residual killing paring down the number of mutants on earth to a couple hundred is there any point to the X-Men, or is Logan just sticking around to protect his friends? Should he bother with the Civil War or let the Americans sort it out, and call him when they come to their senses? In some ways Wolverine has gotten too big for a team book. I'd rather see Wolverine quit both the X-Men and the New Avengers and exist only in his solo title for a while. Let the whining about him appearing everywhere end until people beg to see him again. Make him the guy poeple turn only to when they have to because they're out of options. And when he does show up it'll mean something. Something permanent. People will say "Oh $#!+ -- this is serious!" instead of "here we go again..."
As for the creative team - bring back Rucka and Robertson. Another combo I'd like to see on the title would be Peter David (who writes excellent character-driven stories) and one of my old favourites - John Bolton (who's renderring of Wolverine inpressed me in the filler stories in Classic X-Men).
There are two other Wolverine projects getting underway that interest me: X-Force and X-Men First Class: Wolverine and Kitty Pryde.
X-Force seems to occupy the niche that our "X-Cell" was designed to fit - "X-Men don't kill -- but these ain't the X-Men." I don't dislike Kyle and Yost and I'm willing to give them a chance (though this sounds like Tieri's - or even Way's - forte). My only reservation is the similarity of powers (even moreso than disposition) amont the cast, and whether or not this team can last beyond a limited series in the context of "Messiah Complex." I'm hoping for some expansion on X-23's relationship with her "brother" since she's a Kyle & Yost creation, and I like her better as Logan's "reflection" than as the "Wolverine, Jr." she becomes in New X-Men as this offers the only chance to differentiate herself from him and emerge as more of an individual. It's also interesting to see Wolverine and Warpath work together since Thundrebird (Warpath's brother) was killed off exactly because he was too much like Wolverine. I suspect that if this title survives 12 issues we'll see some roster changes.
The Wolverine and Kitty Pryde "sequel" interests me because for the same reason it was interesting in the first place - it takes Wolverine out of his comfort-zone and places him in an uncomfortable situation that nevertheless led to exposing a side of Logan we hadn't seen before. Nevertheless over the years it's always puzzled me how the relationship became as deep and important to both of them as it was portrayed in more recent times ("recent" being the last 15years). This series could fill in the blanks. My one reservation is this: Claremont should be writing it. Not only did he create the relationship (and kitty for that matter) but he's done far more than every other writer combined to shape it over the last 30 years. No one knows the dynamic between these two characters as well as Chris Claremont and no one deserves to write this story more than him.
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 8, 2008 14:18:12 GMT -5
This is the first I've heard of that! It's in the latest issue of Wizard - I have no idea how reliable it is. Speaking of which - would Byrne and Claremont even be willing to work together? They worked together for that JLA arc a couple of years back, but I think Claremont was involved only as scripter. As for the creative team - bring back Rucka and Robertson. Another combo I'd like to see on the title would be Peter David (who writes excellent character-driven stories) and one of my old favourites - John Bolton (who's renderring of Wolverine inpressed me in the filler stories in Classic X-Men). I've read all Rucka's Wolverine work (most recently his prose work, Wolverine & Elektra: The Redeemer), and I think it's all been great. A few people complained about the pacing in the Native arc but I thought it all played all brilliantly. The best writer currently working in comics for my money. I thought David's Wolverine stories were great dialogue-wise but rather boring plot-wise. I like Bolton a lot but wonder if his style would work well in Wolverine (illiteration, eh?) - I only have two or three Bolton stories in my collection. I'm sure they'd make a solid team, however. I'd love to see Paul Smith draw Wolvie again. Claremont should be writing it. Not only did he create the relationship (and kitty for that matter) As far as I'm aware Byrne argues differently! I frequently visit his forum, and I recall him posting his original concept designs for Kitty, which basically contain her powers and a description of her personality with a note "to Chris" on the bottom. While I don't want to put words into Byrne's mouth, I don't think he acknowledges Kitty as Claremont's co-creation.
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Jan 8, 2008 17:39:55 GMT -5
Heh...you wouldn't believe this but look what I just came across under no attempt to do so!
From 2000: Michael Thomas: Chris Claremont has returned to the main X-Men titles (Uncanny and adjectiveless) after an eight-year respite. The inevitable question that you face every time is coming, but I'll try to be a tad fresher. What would it take for you to return to the X-Men in the present? More money? More creative control?
John Byrne: If you're asking if I would work with Chris again, the answer is "Nothing". There's nothing that would make me go back there. It would just be too frustrating. He and I were miles apart even when we were working on the book the first time. That gulf has only grown with the years. If you're asking what would get me back there on my own, without Chris, again, I can't really think of anything that would serve as an enticement. The characters have been taken too far from the ones I know and like. The storylines have become too convoluted. Frankly, I would not be interested in doing all the homework necessary jut to catch up!
MT: What's your relationship with Chris Claremont currently? Is it a civil professional relationship or is it more friendly than that? Besides X-Men, has there been talk of you and he collaborating on any other project together: plots, characters, completely original?
JB: Bob Harras asks me to do something with Chris again about twice a year. Somehow he seems to think such a collaboration would save Marvel and the Industry as a whole. I think the opposite. My relationship with Chris is cordial and professional, but I have no desire to work with him again.
|
|
|
Post by Megalictis on Jan 9, 2008 9:33:48 GMT -5
I had no idea Byrne had so much to do with creating Kitty! All I remember (and this vaguely) was that Kitty Pryde was named after someone Claremont knew in school. I had a portfolio of Byrne's sketches circa 1980 (I think it was just called "The Art of John Byrne") and I remember some early Kitty sketches but I can't recall that one being included. (The sketch that really stuck out in my memory was Byrne's rendition of kitty "fully grown").
And thank you so much for resolving the question of any possible future Byrne/Claremont collaboration. I find it interesting that the stories I remember with fond nostalgia were born of a struggle and constant compromise that fully satisfied neither creator. I can only guess at how different things might have been if one or the other had had complete creative control. (I've heard some of Claremont's plans that never saw print in his time, and seen some of them re-worked by his successors decades later). I know Claremont also credits editor Louise Simonson (then Louise Jones) for keeping him from following through with some bad ideas he had, but now I can almost imagine her playing referee between the co-creators.
|
|
|
Post by Rose on Jan 9, 2008 16:08:27 GMT -5
You know, it's fascinating just to read back and forth between you two...
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Jan 10, 2008 14:52:56 GMT -5
Really, that ^^ was some serious text :'D I can't say anything but there were so good ideas, that someone should say something to someone at Marvel... they could get some tips from this forum ;D
|
|
|
Post by CongoJack on Feb 9, 2008 17:43:34 GMT -5
quote]Another combo I'd like to see on the title would be Peter David... Just found out that Peter David will be writing Election Day, an original Wolverine novel due August of this year. I'll be getting it on the strength of Blood Hungry and David's other Wolverine work.
|
|